can men be faithful?! Options

[K_Green]

i was having this conversation with a female friend of mine, and she says that the answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT! what are your thoughts?!

[JBenjamin]

i was having this conversation with a female friend of mine, and she says that the answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT! what are your thoughts?!

To say that men can't be faithful seems like an awfully broad statement. Sure, men might have more of a desire to spread their love, but one can certainly be faithful if he decides to, no?

[EarthMother]

To say that men can't be faithful seems like an awfully broad statement. Sure, men might have more of a desire to spread their love, but one can certainly be faithful if he decides to, no?

Perhaps there is some difference in what "faithful" means to each gender. If you're talking simply about sexual fidelity to one mate for life, well, I personally think that's an unreasonable expectation for ANYBODY, male or female, but also admit that men are, through no fault of their own, a bit more hardwired to, as Joe said, "spread their love" - it's how the human race has survived and multiplied. But I have had plenty of experiences of being betrayed by females who I thought were my loyal friends and have witnessed plenty of instances where females have used infidelity as a manipulative tool with men. Which is worse, or is there a "worse?" Personally, I tend to trust men more simply because I have not experienced the Machiavellian plotting and scheming with them that I have with women - like their genitalia, their means of betrayal are usually right out there while women I've known keep theirs internal, hidden under layers of motivations and plans. Before all the feminists get up in arms, let me say that I'm not saying ALL women operate that way - sweeping generalizations are an ignorant waste of human intellect. But it is my lot (or perhaps assignment) this time around to try to see the other side. Has anyone else noticed how many men still have the close friends they had in grade school or as teamates in high school or buddies they made in college or the military? As a woman, I would be hard-pressed to recognize any of my so-called "best friends" from my childhood or adolescence and as an adult, while I have some very treasured long-term friendships, many tend to come and go in intensity and active participation with the circumstances of my life. It's my theory that men are also hardwired to develop these kinds of non-sexual bonds with each other because at one point in our evolution, it was necessary for survival - no man could go out by himself and hunt a mastodon, he had to have his posse with him. While women were also once way more cooperative and community group-oriented than we are now, if the men were doing their job to bring home the meat, the women could cook it, cure it, make clothes out the skin of it and fuel out of the oil from it by themselves if they'd had to without being in danger. But I digress (now there's a surprise!)...CAN men be faithful - YES! WILL they? Now that's what the real question is!

[billyminsh]

Well, I think Sue pretty much covered it. I believe we can. I never have been, but I'd like to believe it's possible. I know heterosexual men who I truly believe are, but GAY men...well...

[K_Green]

Well, I think Sue pretty much covered it. I believe we can. I never have been, but I'd like to believe it's possible. I know heterosexual men who I truly believe are, but GAY men...well...

ur right, billy, earth mother BROKE IT DOWN (on several different levels)!

but u raise another interesting point. are our hetero counterparts more inclined to be faithful in their relationships than we are?! i mean, i honestly don't know too many gay men who are involved in completely monogamous commitments! what's up with that?!

[EarthMother]

ur right, billy, earth mother BROKE IT DOWN (on several different levels)!

but u raise another interesting point. are our hetero counterparts more inclined to be faithful in their relationships than we are?! i mean, i honestly don't know too many gay men who are involved in completely monogamous commitments! what's up with that?!

If I may presume to comment on the fidelity capabilities of gay men...well, I'm going to anyway! HA! As someone who has performed 4 gay marriages (whether they were legal or not!) and 2 straight ones, I am pleased to say that 3 of the gay ones have survived while neither of the straight ones did, though infidelity wasn't the cause of any of the break-ups. But awhile back I saw one of those "60 Minutes"-type shows that examined the longevity of committed gay relationships and they made a very good point. I think everyone is aware of the trouble men and women sometimes have communicating with each other - the whole Mars/Venus thing! One of the gay couples on the show demonstrated how they thought communication played a big part in their success by having one guy ask the other, "Do I look fat in this?" (a way-too-common question women ask) and he was told "Hell, yes, you KNOW horizontal stripes aren't for you!" And then the responder looked at the camera and said, "Just imagine if he'd been a woman!" That may have been a stilted example, but I DO think when gay relationships are successful at monogamy, there is usually a strong foundation of honest communication between the partners. The ones I've seen fail have either never had that foundation or it eroded for some reason. Plus, I think age is also a component. Sorry, guys, but when you're young, it's not as important to have that someone-to-grow-old-with as it becomes as you get older. The sad irony is that just when most guys begin to like the idea of settling down, they find that they're "too old" to be on the market. I used to fantasize about owning an old-fshioned night club specifically for gay men over 40 - actual REAL music (Sinatra, Streisand, Sarah Vaughn, Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans) low enough to encourage conversation; rosy, low lighting; candles; good food; really comfortable chairs on wheels; a warm, peaceful, comforting place to go to actually connect with others, not some loud, nerve-jangling meat market. I'd have different kinds of "salon" nights - books, politics, food, etc. But I'm afraid that will have to wait for another lifetime! I wish there were places like it, though! As great as you two are now, I'm looking forward to knowing you when you're my age!

[Lou]

I deeply enjoyed all of the previous posts and now I'll add my 2 or 3 cents. I believe the answer to that question is YES. Men can be and many ARE faithful. I haven't had much relationship experience to tell the truth, so some may discount my opinion on this matter, but in the experiences I have had, I've NEVER cheated on any man I've dated and decided to be exclusive with. In fact, I've tended to stop having sex with other men when I felt the guy I was currently dating could be "the one." I've done this with no expectation for him to become monogamous, because I feel people in relationship tend to reach the point where they feel like being monogamous at different times. I also feel that it shouldn't be expected. It should be allowed to develop. When it's forced, implied or coerced, resentments and other negative emotions come into play that are hazardous to relationships... to say the least. It's unfortunate that we are (mainly) socially programmed to expect monogamy and to feel fear & insecurity when a partner is sexually active with someone else. I have a pretty free attitude toward sex and at the same time feel that it is sacred, regardless of how freaky or raunchy it gets, how many people are involved and other factors. While I do agree that men are more likely than women to be hardwired to make monogamy require more effort on their part, I do believe that it is not impossible and that a lot of what makes people think it's difficult or impossible is social programming & belief in/acting out of stereotypes. I'd continue, but I have to get back to work. I may add more later. Thanks for bringing this topic to the discussion

Be Well, Be Blessed, Love and Be Loved....

[TPANKevin]

I am going to say "it depends" and leave it at that!

[br14n]

I'm not convinced that men are "hardwired" for polygamy any more than they're hardwired for monogamy, masturbation or any other kind of sexual stimulation. As for gay men being less faithful than straight men, I think we need to remember that there are social factors at work as well. As we're all well aware, there are entire social structures built around heterosexual monogamy/marriage. If you're a straight man, you're expected to get married and have kids and be a good, faithful, monogamous father. If your gay, you're not even allowed to get married. If a straight man is more capable of being faithful, it might be because who he is is partially influenced by what is expected of him.

[PaulW]

I say yes.

[Enid]

All right now, Keith, tell your friend: the answer is definitely YES[color="#0000FF"][/color][size="2"][/size]. I'll tell you where she's coming from (mark my words and make me a bet so I can go out and buy a new car): she says "no" because of some bad experience - her mama's, her own, or whoever's. So one guy cheated and now she thinks all guys cheat. Just looking at this on the surface, isn't that absolutely crazy? I have had the experience of men who couldn't cheat. Just absolutely could not. I knew one guy who ran for office and had to be taught to kiss women and babies because he used to say, "I don't want any woman touching me but my own." On the other hand, I was just talking recently with a friend who said in her hooker days she would see the pictures of absolutely beautiful wives and children some of her customers had at home and she herself would think, "Why would you go out for hamburger when you have steak at home?" She developed the theory that men just wanted to stick their dick in a new hole. That may be true of some men, that is definitely not true of all. For God's sake! We cannot condemn all men based on the behavior of some. I wouldn't even condemn all cheating, all though I would really prefer that couples come to an agreement between themselves that they will or will not have sex with others and under what terms. If you do not have an explicit agreement to "cheat," you have an implicit agreement to be monogomous.

Keith, we will probably never be able to convince your friend. She has emotional trauma around this issue and that trauma has her in its grip. I'm sure she will even go through self-fulfilling prophecies of being cheated on by every man she sees (I'm assuming she's straight). It's really strange to me when I see people pushing others do things that are counter to their own nature, but I've seen it happen enough to know that it's real. This is the path your friend is on. She's almost going to force guys to cheat. Again, I can't even explain how this happens - it just does.

I like many of the points made and found others interesting.
* My women friends have been wonderful.
* I wonder if there's a difference between gay men and straight ones, although I have heard of the non-cheating gay men, so they're out there. At the same time, it seems like many gay couples have permission to stray, and I think that's wonderful.
* I would love a gathering place for "old-timers." Sue, make it so!

Enid

[K_Green]

All right now, Keith, tell your friend: the answer is definitely YES[color="#0000FF"][/color][size="2"][/size]. I'll tell you where she's coming from (mark my words and make me a bet so I can go out and buy a new car): she says "no" because of some bad experience - her mama's, her own, or whoever's. So one guy cheated and now she thinks all guys cheat. Just looking at this on the surface, isn't that absolutely crazy? I have had the experience of men who couldn't cheat. Just absolutely could not. I knew one guy who ran for office and had to be taught to kiss women and babies because he used to say, "I don't want any woman touching me but my own." On the other hand, I was just talking recently with a friend who said in her hooker days she would see the pictures of absolutely beautiful wives and children some of her customers had at home and she herself would think, "Why would you go out for hamburger when you have steak at home?" She developed the theory that men just wanted to stick their dick in a new hole. That may be true of some men, that is definitely not true of all. For God's sake! We cannot condemn all men based on the behavior of some. I wouldn't even condemn all cheating, all though I would really prefer that couples come to an agreement between themselves that they will or will not have sex with others and under what terms. If you do not have an explicit agreement to "cheat," you have an implicit agreement to be monogomous.

Keith, we will probably never be able to convince your friend. She has emotional trauma around this issue and that trauma has her in its grip. I'm sure she will even go through self-fulfilling prophecies of being cheated on by every man she sees (I'm assuming she's straight). It's really strange to me when I see people pushing others do things that are counter to their own nature, but I've seen it happen enough to know that it's real. This is the path your friend is on. She's almost going to force guys to cheat. Again, I can't even explain how this happens - it just does.

I like many of the points made and found others interesting.
* My women friends have been wonderful.
* I wonder if there's a difference between gay men and straight ones, although I have heard of the non-cheating gay men, so they're out there. At the same time, it seems like many gay couples have permission to stray, and I think that's wonderful.
* I would love a gathering place for "old-timers." Sue, make it so!

Enid

it's so ironic that you would reply to this today. another friend of mine sent me this in an e-mail earlier this morning. i was speechless!!!

ME AND XXXXXXXXX WAS WATCHING T.V AND SHE GOT TO TELLING ME CHRIS BROWN
NOT HER FAVORITE SINGER NO MORE CAUSE HE BEAT UP RHIANA, SO THEN WE GOT
TO TALKING ABOUT WHEN SHE GROW UP, WHAT JOB SHE GO HAVE AND IF SHE GOING
TO COLLEGE. SHE STATED SHE WANT TO OWN A CIRCUS SO SHE CAN MAKE PEOPLE
LAUGH, SHE IS GOING TO COLLEGE BUT SHE'S NOT GETTING MARRIED. I ASKED
HER WHY SHE DIDN'T WANT TO GET MARRIED AND SHE SAID CAUSE ALL MEN CHEAT,
AND SHE NOT GO HAVE NO BOY CHEATING ON HER...........I'M LIKE WTF!!!
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT FROM?? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK ALL MEN CHEAT. AND
SHE JUST SAID PLAINLY IT'S A FACT. I TOLD HER THAT THAT'S NOT TRUE FOR
ALL MEN, AND IT IS SOME GOOD MEN OUT THERE. BUT SHE WAS SOOOOOO ADAMENT
ABOUT IT.

WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM. IS MY RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN THAT
PHUCKED UP THAT IT GOT A 6 YEAR OLD ALREADY TALKING ABOUT ALL MEN
CHEAT?? I TRIED TO GET IT OUT OF HER BUT SHE DIDN'T MENTION ANYTHING
PERSONAL WITH ME. THAT REALLY THREW ME LEFT FIELD. WHAT IS THIS WORLD
COMING TO?? MARRIAGE AND RELATIONSHIPS HAVE CHANGED SINCE I WAS A KID
AND EVEN MORE SO THEN WHEN MY GRANDPARENTS WERE COMING UP. BLACKS DON'T
GET MARRIED LIKE THEY USE TO BUT IN 20 YEARS IS ALL YOUNG GIRLS JUST GO
THINK THAT MARRIAGE IS NOT A POSSIBILTY. AGAIN I DID TRY TO TALK TO HER
ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS BUT SHE REALLY HAD ME WITH THE DUMB LOOK FOR A FEW
MINS

[Enid]

I agree with your friend: a six-year-old got that from somewhere. As for marriages, that reminds me of something else: women cheat too. The male bashers don't want to talk about that, nor about the abuse of men by women (physical, mental, emotional, and financial). It cuts both ways. (Speaking of which, why is the financial abuse of women by men so rarely considered and discussed?)

Male bashing hurts the many good men who are out there. It can also make the women, as a group, look innocent. Life is more difficult when you go on a case-by-case analysis, and when you look at all the sides of the story and all the shades of grey instead of making black-and-white assumptions, but that's the way it's got to be. If you want a better understanding and see more options, anyway.

Thanks for sharing that personal story, Keith.

Oh! I just remembered. That Oprah show episode with the doctor who wrote a book on male cheating was re-run this week. He talks to women about preventing cheating by husbands. Oprah had to have a second show with him because of the angry backlash from women. I was thinking, "Don't kill the messenger." This guy is just giving you some good information from his expert opinion. It can't cover all situations and it doesn't make women responsible for a husband's cheating, but if you can take something from it that helps you, all the better.

Enid

[LeoLayne]

Then she hasn't met the right kind of man (or women). When you find that one love that makes you aware of your own self worth, then there is no reason to cheat!!!!!!

i was having this conversation with a female friend of mine, and she says that the answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT! what are your thoughts?!

[rhzoo]

i was having this conversation with a female friend of mine, and she says that the answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT! what are your thoughts?!

Can they or do they WANT to be faithful? That's a deeper question. I CHOSE to be faithful and hope my guy is too.
Faith hope & love all go together for me